You saw what Yoryaki QUackandreou said about the Bulgaria blockade: Greece
lacks credibility. Greeks instinctively lie, they hedge, they embelish, they
are allergic to the truth. Nobody trusts Greeks, as Nietzsche said, Trojan
Horse Perfidy. Honest Greeks are doubly handicapped, because honest people
won't deal with them, and the dishonest people don't want to deal with them
when they find out they aren't dishonest like other Greeks. Then they lie
about churches - which are agencies of foreign governments and racketeering
coersions against our American birthrights - and should pay taxes accordingly
instead of pretend to be churches, since as you, Arankis, said religion is
for failures and that churches should serve Greek "national interests". It's
time to pay the piper. The way the Greeks forced their way on us here in
America,, now the shoe is on the other foot! It's time for us to make them
learn to behave!

In by
on Thu, 11 Feb 2010 23:45:36 +0000 (UTC) we perused:
*+-In by Alexander Arnakis
*+- on Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:28:26 -0500 we perused:

*+-*+-Sure they lied about the deficit. What else were they to do

*+- That is EXACTLY the schizoparanoid reponse whenever they are caught doing
*+-something wrong! ("What else was I supposed to do? Everyone else does it!")
*+-You seem to prefer Greece have a Third World currency (your depreciation
*+-solution), or even join the Arab Monetary Union! The psychiatric condition
*+-that makes Greeks blame Brits, Americans, Jews and Masons is exactly the same
*+-dementia that makes them pathological liars, whether it is government
*+-budgets, individual taxes, or in the USA, sanitary and zoning rules. I
*+-noticed early in life that the Greeks who hated my parents, hated Iakovos,
*+-hated my best priests and teachers, also hated Jews, Masons, Brits &al. They
*+-have exaggerated suspicions about others to justify their own lawlessness.

*+- The National Interest 1999 SPRING Greece: Like Any Other European Country?
*+-Loukas Tsoukalis Greece found itself on the wrong side of Huntington's map,
*+-because of its Orthodox tradition, not to mention several centuries spent
*+-under Ottoman rule.

*+- Clash Civ Huntington Frn Aff Smr 1993 pp30-31 Ottoman or Tsarist empires
*+-and were only lightly touched by the shaping events in the rest of Europe;
*+-they are generally less advanced economically; the seem much less likely to
*+-develop stable democratic political systems

*+- - = -
*+- Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
*+- http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm http://www.facebook.com/vasjpan2
*+- ---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
*+- [Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
*+- [Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]






- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm http://www.facebook.com/vasjpan2
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]

wrote:
You saw what Yoryaki QUackandreou said about the Bulgaria blockade: Greece
lacks credibility. Greeks instinctively lie, they hedge, they embelish, they
are allergic to the truth. Nobody trusts Greeks, as Nietzsche said, Trojan
Horse Perfidy. Honest Greeks are doubly handicapped, because honest people
won't deal with them, and the dishonest people don't want to deal with them
when they find out they aren't dishonest like other Greeks. Then they lie
about churches - which are agencies of foreign governments and racketeering
coersions against our American birthrights - and should pay taxes accordingly
instead of pretend to be churches, since as you, Arankis, said religion is
for failures and that churches should serve Greek "national interests". It's
time to pay the piper. The way the Greeks forced their way on us here in
America,, now the shoe is on the other foot! It's time for us to make them
learn to behave!

Is the above your own opinion?

In by
on Thu, 11 Feb 2010 23:45:36 +0000 (UTC) we perused:
*+-In by Alexander Arnakis
*+- on Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:28:26 -0500 we perused:

*+-*+-Sure they lied about the deficit. What else were they to do

*+- That is EXACTLY the schizoparanoid reponse whenever they are caught doing
*+-something wrong! ("What else was I supposed to do? Everyone else does it!")
*+-You seem to prefer Greece have a Third World currency (your depreciation
*+-solution), or even join the Arab Monetary Union! The psychiatric condition
*+-that makes Greeks blame Brits, Americans, Jews and Masons is exactly the same
*+-dementia that makes them pathological liars, whether it is government
*+-budgets, individual taxes, or in the USA, sanitary and zoning rules. I
*+-noticed early in life that the Greeks who hated my parents, hated Iakovos,
*+-hated my best priests and teachers, also hated Jews, Masons, Brits &al. They
*+-have exaggerated suspicions about others to justify their own lawlessness.

Is the above your opinion?


*+- The National Interest 1999 SPRING Greece: Like Any Other European Country?
*+-Loukas Tsoukalis Greece found itself on the wrong side of Huntington's map,
*+-because of its Orthodox tradition, not to mention several centuries spent
*+-under Ottoman rule.

*+- Clash Civ Huntington Frn Aff Smr 1993 pp30-31 Ottoman or Tsarist empires
*+-and were only lightly touched by the shaping events in the rest of Europe;
*+-they are generally less advanced economically; the seem much less likely to
*+-develop stable democratic political systems

*+- - = -
*+- Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
*+- http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm http://www.facebook.com/vasjpan2
*+- ---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
*+- [Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
*+- [Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]






- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm http://www.facebook.com/vasjpan2
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]

On Feb 14, 2:35*am, Mitsos*** wrote:
wrote:
* *You saw what Yoryaki QUackandreou said about the Bulgaria blockade: Greece
lacks credibility. *Greeks instinctively lie, they hedge, they embelish, they
are allergic to the truth. Nobody trusts Greeks, as Nietzsche said, Trojan
Horse Perfidy. Honest Greeks are doubly handicapped, because honest people
won't deal with them, and the dishonest people don't want to deal with them
when they find out they aren't dishonest like other Greeks. Then they lie
about churches - which are agencies of foreign governments and racketeering
coersions against our American birthrights - and should pay taxes accordingly
instead of pretend to be churches, since as you, Arankis, said religion is
for failures and that churches should serve Greek "national interests". It's
time to pay the piper. The way the Greeks forced their way on us here in
America,, now the shoe is on the other foot! It's time for us to make them
learn to behave!

Is the above your own opinion?

Mitsos, this guy is an instinctive Greek hater so any discussion with
him is bound to be unproductive and really useless

ADR wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:35 am, Mitsos*** wrote:
wrote:
You saw what Yoryaki QUackandreou said about the Bulgaria blockade: Greece
lacks credibility. Greeks instinctively lie, they hedge, they embelish, they
are allergic to the truth. Nobody trusts Greeks, as Nietzsche said, Trojan
Horse Perfidy. Honest Greeks are doubly handicapped, because honest people
won't deal with them, and the dishonest people don't want to deal with them
when they find out they aren't dishonest like other Greeks. Then they lie
about churches - which are agencies of foreign governments and racketeering
coersions against our American birthrights - and should pay taxes accordingly
instead of pretend to be churches, since as you, Arankis, said religion is
for failures and that churches should serve Greek "national interests". It's
time to pay the piper. The way the Greeks forced their way on us here in
America,, now the shoe is on the other foot! It's time for us to make them
learn to behave!
Is the above your own opinion?

Mitsos, this guy is an instinctive Greek hater so any discussion with
him is bound to be unproductive and really useless
Good for setting the record strait.
I got the impression that he is a Greek but extreme right wing and that
he is more American then Americans ( attacking people for daring to
criticize the "good" USA ) and more Zionist then most Israelis.
I love my country Greece but whats right is right and whats wrong is wrong.
We can agree or disagree here whats best for Greece but in my heart I
want the best for Greece and it's people.

On Feb 14, 1:31*pm, Mitsos*** wrote:
ADR wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:35 am, Mitsos*** wrote:
wrote:
* *You saw what Yoryaki QUackandreou said about the Bulgaria blockade: Greece
lacks credibility. *Greeks instinctively lie, they hedge, they embelish, they
are allergic to the truth. Nobody trusts Greeks, as Nietzsche said, Trojan
Horse Perfidy. Honest Greeks are doubly handicapped, because honest people
won't deal with them, and the dishonest people don't want to deal with them
when they find out they aren't dishonest like other Greeks. Then they lie
about churches - which are agencies of foreign governments and racketeering
coersions against our American birthrights - and should pay taxes accordingly
instead of pretend to be churches, since as you, Arankis, said religion is
for failures and that churches should serve Greek "national interests". It's
time to pay the piper. The way the Greeks forced their way on us here in
America,, now the shoe is on the other foot! It's time for us to make them
learn to behave!
Is the above your own opinion?

Mitsos, this guy is an instinctive Greek hater so any discussion with
him is bound to be unproductive and really useless

Good for setting the record strait.
I got the impression that he is a Greek but extreme right wing and that
he is more American then Americans ( attacking people for daring to
criticize the "good" USA ) and more Zionist then most Israelis.
I love my country Greece but whats right is right and whats wrong is wrong.
We can agree or disagree here whats best for Greece but in my heart I
want the best for Greece and it's people.

He just wants Greece to be like North America.
Everybody pay their taxes like good little citizens and do not
question Government.
While the Government has taken sides with big business. Extending
peoples work
hours and retirement while lowering hourly wages and will be taxing
them to the point of slavery.
Now there is a system for you.

? "ADR" ?????? ??? ??????
...
On Feb 14, 2:35 am, Mitsos*** wrote:
Is the above your own opinion?

Mitsos, this guy is an instinctive Greek hater so any discussion with
him is bound to be unproductive and really useless

Greek an a...Greek hater!
How sad!

On Feb 14, 12:30*pm, annokato wrote:

He just wants Greece to be like North America.
Everybody pay their taxes like good little citizens and do not
question Government.
While the Government has taken sides with big business. Extending
peoples work
hours and retirement while lowering hourly wages and will be taxing
them to the point of slavery.
Now there is a system for you.

Agreed, it is not desirable. See what is happening in Ireland. Much
worse than Greece, it is pounded ferociously. Spain has a 20%
unemployment.

Let's get real. The only way out of this dilemma is

(a) Greece exits the Euro and runs its own monetary policy. This is
the only way. The Germans, the French and the Dutch may be selling a
****lot of products to Greece but none of the taxes of the corporate
profits in these countries can be used to support a Greek economy
battling a world-wide recession. The Germans say that they do not
want any of their money to support Greece but they still want the
Greeks to buy their products. Sometimes this may make sense to Greece
and sometimes it may not. If Greece was making its own monetary
policy, it would have devalued the drachma making imported goods
expensive and Greek goods very competitive in foreign markets. Sure,
the Germans would have squealed, but they are squealing now anyway.
The devaluation would have allowed Greeks to maintain their standard
of living, boost exports, limit imports and restore competitiveness.
Now, the government depends on the ECB, a bunch of faceless
bureaucrats in Frankfurt. Is this the best way to run a country???

(b) Greeks and Greek banks should buy en mass government issued
bonds. If the Greek state can sell most of its bonds internally at a
descent interest rate, the citizens win, the state wins and the bond
blood suckers lose. My father used to buy government bonds. They can
pay a descent rate of return and they can be sold at any time. The
Greek state should be out there selling bonds and the trade unions
should be out there convincing their membership to buy these bonds.

(c) Reform the state. Shrink the civil service, sell out state
enterprises and improve education. Nobody needs to support the Public
Power Corporation (DEH). It should be profitable. If it needs to
shed half its employees to become so, well, this is what needs to
happen. Make tax evasion of crime punishable by seizure of property
and assets and by jail time. Informed the citizens of the costs of
tax evasion. My mom knows that if some scheister does not pay his/her
taxes, it is her pension that suffers. This should be understood
widely. The salaried persons should not be the only ones that bear
the burden of taxation.

I have no problem in bringing the age of retirement to 65 and stopping
early retirement. Life expectancy has increased dramatically, you
cannot have the young workers support a huge army of retirees, each
one of those staying on the trough for 40 years!! Only special,
dangerous and unhealthy professions should be awarded early
retirement.

At the end, Greece needs to re-assess if it wants to stay in the EU.
The benefits of joining the EU have been minimal. Some will claim
that the benefits were not taken advantage of because of the
inefficiencies of the Greek state. Well, this is water under the
bridge. The train has left the station. Greece would yield more power
being outside rather inside the EU. Let Latvia and Estonia lick the
German boots. It is high time to chart our own course.

ADR wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:35 am, Mitsos*** wrote:
wrote:
You saw what Yoryaki QUackandreou said about the Bulgaria blockade: Greece
lacks credibility. Greeks instinctively lie, they hedge, they embelish, they
are allergic to the truth. Nobody trusts Greeks, as Nietzsche said, Trojan
Horse Perfidy. Honest Greeks are doubly handicapped, because honest people
won't deal with them, and the dishonest people don't want to deal with them
when they find out they aren't dishonest like other Greeks. Then they lie
about churches - which are agencies of foreign governments and racketeering
coersions against our American birthrights - and should pay taxes accordingly
instead of pretend to be churches, since as you, Arankis, said religion is
for failures and that churches should serve Greek "national interests". It's
time to pay the piper. The way the Greeks forced their way on us here in
America,, now the shoe is on the other foot! It's time for us to make them
learn to behave!
Is the above your own opinion?

Mitsos, this guy is an instinctive Greek hater so any discussion with
him is bound to be unproductive and really useless

I am really amused how _easily_ some of you explain the statements you
dislike with "hate".
Of course , a series of Greek governments have repeatedly lied
and squandered EU money. The case with the Olympics immediately comes to
mind when looking for an example.
Then the Greek statistics has been called "basically fraudulent" by
number of financial observers.
The sad thing here is that the same excessive state bureaucracy
personnel that has been doing this for years now are the first people
to go in the streets to protest.

PS: For the primitive minds who would now point out the Bulgarian
problems with credibility - do not bother.

ADR wrote:
On Feb 14, 12:30 pm, annokato wrote:

He just wants Greece to be like North America.
Everybody pay their taxes like good little citizens and do not
question Government.
While the Government has taken sides with big business. Extending
peoples work
hours and retirement while lowering hourly wages and will be taxing
them to the point of slavery.
Now there is a system for you.

Agreed, it is not desirable. See what is happening in Ireland. Much
worse than Greece, it is pounded ferociously. Spain has a 20%
unemployment.

Let's get real. The only way out of this dilemma is

(a) Greece exits the Euro and runs its own monetary policy.

Greece would be more flexible then.
This is
the only way. The Germans, the French and the Dutch may be selling a
****lot of products to Greece but none of the taxes of the corporate
profits in these countries can be used to support a Greek economy
battling a world-wide recession. The Germans say that they do not
want any of their money to support Greece but they still want the
Greeks to buy their products.
Greeks eat German feta cheese because it's cheaper ( many Greeks are
strugling to make ends meet ) but the wealthier Germans don't buy the
more expensive ( but also better tasting Greek feta )

Sometimes this may make sense to Greece
and sometimes it may not. If Greece was making its own monetary
policy, it would have devalued the drachma making imported goods
expensive and Greek goods very competitive in foreign markets.

The reason why Greece had always a week currency.

Sure,
the Germans would have squealed, but they are squealing now anyway.
The devaluation would have allowed Greeks to maintain their standard
of living, boost exports, limit imports and restore competitiveness.
Now, the government depends on the ECB, a bunch of faceless
bureaucrats in Frankfurt. Is this the best way to run a country???

(b) Greeks and Greek banks should buy en mass government issued
bonds. If the Greek state can sell most of its bonds internally at a
descent interest rate, the citizens win, the state wins and the bond
blood suckers lose. My father used to buy government bonds. They can
pay a descent rate of return and they can be sold at any time. The
Greek state should be out there selling bonds and the trade unions
should be out there convincing their membership to buy these bonds.

(c) Reform the state. Shrink the civil service,

I agree on that. I think half the workforce in the state sector could do
the job.
I remember a conversation with a young woman in Greece who was working
for the state and she told me that they make a coffee pause after
another on her workplace.
I was working for a youth center here in Finland last year and we were 4
people. 2 could have easily run the youth center.
I did half of the cleaning and 2/3 of the snow work and we were four
people and it was still a lazy job for me.
sell out state
enterprises

I would be careful with this because when the railway was privatized in
the UK it become more expensive and less efficient.
In a democracy a country should be able to experiment in order to find
out whats the best way of doing things.
Different situations might require different solutions.

and improve education. Nobody needs to support the Public
Power Corporation (DEH). It should be profitable. If it needs to
shed half its employees to become so, well, this is what needs to
happen. Make tax evasion of crime punishable by seizure of property
and assets and by jail time.

Tax evasion has to be cut at least by 50% or even 75%
When I was in Platanias in 2009 many had illegal Albanian workers who
paid no taxes or insurance and neither did their employers for them.
The police knew this but had both eyes closed.

Informed the citizens of the costs of
tax evasion. My mom knows that if some scheister does not pay his/her
taxes, it is her pension that suffers. This should be understood
widely. The salaried persons should not be the only ones that bear
the burden of taxation.

I have no problem in bringing the age of retirement to 65
65 is OK unless the person is sick

and stopping
early retirement. Life expectancy has increased dramatically, you
cannot have the young workers support a huge army of retirees, each
one of those staying on the trough for 40 years!! Only special,
dangerous and unhealthy professions should be awarded early
retirement.

At the end, Greece needs to re-assess if it wants to stay in the EU.
The benefits of joining the EU have been minimal. Some will claim
that the benefits were not taken advantage of because of the
inefficiencies of the Greek state. Well, this is water under the
bridge. The train has left the station. Greece would yield more power
being outside rather inside the EU. Let Latvia and Estonia lick the
German boots. It is high time to chart our own course.

I am no friend of the EU anymore.
We lost much of our independence while benefiting only very slightly
from the EU.
Greece should look for markets everywhere in the world.
All in all I agree.
Where I differ is the following points:
Privatizations is not always making a service better or cheaper.
Some services should not be privatized like universal health care
but expenses can be and should be trimmed in state run enterprises
without compromising on quality.
Efficiency is the magic word

On Feb 15, 12:24*am, SteN wrote:

Mitsos, this guy is an instinctive Greek hater so any discussion with
him is bound to be unproductive and really useless

I am really amused how _easily_ some of you explain the statements you
dislike with "hate".

No, I have dealt with this individual before.

Of course , a series of Greek governments have repeatedly lied
and squandered EU money.

Money has been squandered by various governments in every state of the
world. I never stated that the Greek state is the model of
efficiency. On the other hand, Greek government failings aside, the
effects of the crisis are hitting Ireland worse than Greece and
unemployment is much higher in Spain. The Irish banks are essentially
bankrupt. If funds by the EU have or have not been spent wisely has
absolutely nothing to do with the current crisis. The inefficiency of
the Greek civil service to even absorb community funds was well known.

The case with the Olympics immediately comes to
mind when looking for an example.

No, it has nothing to do with anything. Greece did not and could not
utilize EU funds for the Olympics. Yes, it did borrow about $7
billion. I objected to the hosting of the Olympics for other reasons
but this amount of borrowing was a minor event although substantial
for the city of Athens.

Then the Greek statistics has been called "basically fraudulent" by
number of financial observers.

Well, it is difficult to uncover the truth here. According to the
Greek PM in his press interview last Friday, the commission and the
ECB did have the real numbers; he accused them of being far more
friendly to the conservative government; in addition, according to
"Businessweek", it was not the Greek statistical service that provided
erroneous numbers, it was Goldman Sacks. We would not know where the
truth lays here until there is a full investigation.

The sad thing here is that the same excessive state bureaucracy
personnel that has been doing this for years now *are the first people
to go in the streets to protest.

This is a democracy, they have the right to protest. It does not mean
that the "excessive bureaucracy" is well paid to sustain substantial
wage cuts. If there are extensive lay offs, somebody would need to
pay for the unemployment benefits without collecting anything in
taxes!! It is a difficult question.

The government needs to exit the Euro immediately. I know that this
will precipitate an immense crisis in the Euro but in the absence of
political integration, the Euro makes no sense. It is much better to
depreciate your own currency than to cut GDP by 10%. Look at the
immense suffering right now in Ireland or the extensive unemployment
in Spain. There is no exit out of this without breaking up the Euro.

PS: For the primitive minds who would now point out the Bulgarian
problems with credibility *- do not bother.

I would only like to point out that a crisis that would affect Greece,
Italy, Spain, Portugal and it is now closing in on Austria would
affect Bulgaria as well.