I'm hoping someone can tell me that I am wrong and direct me to a solution
to the problem.

I never sign direct debits or regular payments to my credit cards. For the
last two months a company called HPMP of Brussels has taken 39.99 euros from
my MBNA account. I have never made any purchases from that company or had
anything to do with them. When I googled them I cannot find any contact
details but have found others who have been scammed identically eg
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...html?t=1980881 .

It seems reasonable to me that if I alert the credit card company to what is
a fraud that they would have a simple mechanism to check my story (they have
found the Google links and agree it appears to be fraud) refund the amounts
and stop further debits. But they tell me that this isn't possible.

They tell me that the process is that they will go back to the fraudsters
credit card company and query it. If no response or proof of purchase is
provided then they will refund the amounts. But they will do nothing to
prevent future fraudulent debits. Evidently, even if I were to cancel the
card they tell me that I will still be responsible for the fraudulent debits
for as long as the fraudsters choose to process the debits and that I will
need to call them and invoke the chargeback process for every future debit.

What concerns me - about from the barmyness of not being able to do anything
from my side to stop a transaction I have notified as not being mine - is
that the fraudsters will continue to debit accounts where the debit has NOT
been noticed and that the credit card companies are complicit with the
practice by doing nothing to prevent it. With a bank direct debit I can
cancel it online. Where is the consumer protection and fraud prevention?

Have I understood this correctly and is there anything I can do to force a
credit card to take reasonable action to prevent a fraud that they are
clearly aware of? It seems to me that failing to do so must break some
banking rule but they tell me that this is not so.

Any pointers appreciated.

............... hope this link is "better":

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...html?t=1980881

On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:44:26 -0000, "Dan Charette"
wrote:

I'm hoping someone can tell me that I am wrong and direct me to a solution
to the problem.

I never sign direct debits or regular payments to my credit cards. For the
last two months a company called HPMP of Brussels has taken 39.99 euros from
my MBNA account. I have never made any purchases from that company or had
anything to do with them. When I googled them I cannot find any contact
details but have found others who have been scammed identically eg
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...html?t=1980881 .

It seems reasonable to me that if I alert the credit card company to what is
a fraud that they would have a simple mechanism to check my story (they have
found the Google links and agree it appears to be fraud) refund the amounts
and stop further debits. But they tell me that this isn't possible.

They tell me that the process is that they will go back to the fraudsters
credit card company and query it. If no response or proof of purchase is
provided then they will refund the amounts. But they will do nothing to
prevent future fraudulent debits. Evidently, even if I were to cancel the
card they tell me that I will still be responsible for the fraudulent debits
for as long as the fraudsters choose to process the debits and that I will
need to call them and invoke the chargeback process for every future debit.

What concerns me - about from the barmyness of not being able to do anything
from my side to stop a transaction I have notified as not being mine - is
that the fraudsters will continue to debit accounts where the debit has NOT
been noticed and that the credit card companies are complicit with the
practice by doing nothing to prevent it. With a bank direct debit I can
cancel it online. Where is the consumer protection and fraud prevention?

Have I understood this correctly and is there anything I can do to force a
credit card to take reasonable action to prevent a fraud that they are
clearly aware of? It seems to me that failing to do so must break some
banking rule but they tell me that this is not so.

Any pointers appreciated.

The main thing I can think of is keep hassling your credit card
company. If there has been fraud on your account they should issue
you with a new card with a new account number. This should make it
more difficult for the fraud to continue.

I'd also threaten to close your credit card account - this /might/
motivate them to speed things up. However many companies do not care
about customer churn so will take no action to keep your business.

I don't know whether it is worth calling the Police. They're supposed
to be interested in stopping crime.

It might be worth posting a question on uk.legal.moderated.

You could also try contacting your MP in view to changing the law.

I had trouble stopping a CPA a few years back - it took about a year
:-(
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
[Reply-to address valid until it is spammed.]

"Dan Charette" wrote in message
o.uk...
I'm hoping someone can tell me that I am wrong and direct me to a solution
to the problem.

I never sign direct debits or regular payments to my credit cards. For the
last two months a company called HPMP of Brussels has taken 39.99 euros
from
my MBNA account. I have never made any purchases from that company or had
anything to do with them. When I googled them I cannot find any contact
details but have found others who have been scammed identically eg
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...html?t=1980881 .

It seems reasonable to me that if I alert the credit card company to what
is
a fraud that they would have a simple mechanism to check my story (they
have
found the Google links and agree it appears to be fraud) refund the
amounts
and stop further debits. But they tell me that this isn't possible.

They tell me that the process is that they will go back to the fraudsters
credit card company and query it. If no response or proof of purchase is
provided then they will refund the amounts. But they will do nothing to
prevent future fraudulent debits. Evidently, even if I were to cancel the
card they tell me that I will still be responsible for the fraudulent
debits
for as long as the fraudsters choose to process the debits and that I will
need to call them and invoke the chargeback process for every future
debit.

What concerns me - about from the barmyness of not being able to do
anything
from my side to stop a transaction I have notified as not being mine - is
that the fraudsters will continue to debit accounts where the debit has
NOT
been noticed and that the credit card companies are complicit with the
practice by doing nothing to prevent it. With a bank direct debit I can
cancel it online. Where is the consumer protection and fraud prevention?

Have I understood this correctly and is there anything I can do to force a
credit card to take reasonable action to prevent a fraud that they are
clearly aware of? It seems to me that failing to do so must break some
banking rule but they tell me that this is not so.

Any pointers appreciated.

I would say that as your CC Co has made a charge to your account, and is
working on a continuing authority basis, THEY (not the fraudsters) need to
provide you with the authorisation. Failure to provide that should
immediately put a hold on any further charges to your account pending their
enquiries.

You may also want to consider at the same time making a complaint to the
credit card company, maybe progressing it to the Financial Ombudsman
Services http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/

You may also want to consider reporting it to the police.

A combination of all three may well get it all resolved.

IANAL
Iain

On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:02:34 +0000, Mark
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:44:26 -0000, "Dan Charette"
wrote:

I'm hoping someone can tell me that I am wrong and direct me to a solution
to the problem.

I never sign direct debits or regular payments to my credit cards. For the
last two months a company called HPMP of Brussels has taken 39.99 euros from
my MBNA account. I have never made any purchases from that company or had
anything to do with them. When I googled them I cannot find any contact
details but have found others who have been scammed identically eg
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...html?t=1980881 .

It seems reasonable to me that if I alert the credit card company to what is
a fraud that they would have a simple mechanism to check my story (they have
found the Google links and agree it appears to be fraud) refund the amounts
and stop further debits. But they tell me that this isn't possible.

They tell me that the process is that they will go back to the fraudsters
credit card company and query it. If no response or proof of purchase is
provided then they will refund the amounts. But they will do nothing to
prevent future fraudulent debits. Evidently, even if I were to cancel the
card they tell me that I will still be responsible for the fraudulent debits
for as long as the fraudsters choose to process the debits and that I will
need to call them and invoke the chargeback process for every future debit.

What concerns me - about from the barmyness of not being able to do anything
from my side to stop a transaction I have notified as not being mine - is
that the fraudsters will continue to debit accounts where the debit has NOT
been noticed and that the credit card companies are complicit with the
practice by doing nothing to prevent it. With a bank direct debit I can
cancel it online. Where is the consumer protection and fraud prevention?

Have I understood this correctly and is there anything I can do to force a
credit card to take reasonable action to prevent a fraud that they are
clearly aware of? It seems to me that failing to do so must break some
banking rule but they tell me that this is not so.

Any pointers appreciated.

The main thing I can think of is keep hassling your credit card
company. If there has been fraud on your account they should issue
you with a new card with a new account number. This should make it
more difficult for the fraud to continue.

I'd also threaten to close your credit card account - this /might/
motivate them to speed things up. However many companies do not care
about customer churn so will take no action to keep your business.

I don't know whether it is worth calling the Police. They're supposed
to be interested in stopping crime.

Is that a joke? The police are useless.

"Dan Charette" wrote in message
o.uk...
I'm hoping someone can tell me that I am wrong and direct me to a
solution
to the problem.

I never sign direct debits or regular payments to my credit cards.
For the
last two months a company called HPMP of Brussels has taken 39.99
euros from
my MBNA account. I have never made any purchases from that company
or had
anything to do with them. When I googled them I cannot find any
contact
details but have found others who have been scammed identically eg
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...html?t=1980881 .

It seems reasonable to me that if I alert the credit card company to
what is
a fraud that they would have a simple mechanism to check my story
(they have
found the Google links and agree it appears to be fraud) refund the
amounts
and stop further debits. But they tell me that this isn't possible.

They tell me that the process is that they will go back to the
fraudsters
credit card company and query it. If no response or proof of
purchase is
provided then they will refund the amounts. But they will do nothing
to
prevent future fraudulent debits. Evidently, even if I were to
cancel the
card they tell me that I will still be responsible for the
fraudulent debits
for as long as the fraudsters choose to process the debits and that
I will
need to call them and invoke the chargeback process for every future
debit.

What concerns me - about from the barmyness of not being able to do
anything
from my side to stop a transaction I have notified as not being
mine - is
that the fraudsters will continue to debit accounts where the debit
has NOT
been noticed and that the credit card companies are complicit with
the
practice by doing nothing to prevent it. With a bank direct debit I
can
cancel it online. Where is the consumer protection and fraud
prevention?

Have I understood this correctly and is there anything I can do to
force a
credit card to take reasonable action to prevent a fraud that they
are
clearly aware of? It seems to me that failing to do so must break
some
banking rule but they tell me that this is not so.

Any pointers appreciated.

Don't worry about it. It's the bank's problem - you've notified them
of the fraudulent transaction so they should the amount into dispute,
stop any interest/charges on that amount, and unless they get proof
from the retailer that you authorised the transaction they'll refund
it. May take a while (was about 3 months when it happened to me but
can be quicker). It could be the fraudsters are using random credit
card numbers so the bank may not consider it worthwhile changing your
card.

--
Andy

"Mark" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:44:26 -0000, "Dan Charette"
wrote:

I'm hoping someone can tell me that I am wrong and direct me to a
solution
to the problem.

I never sign direct debits or regular payments to my credit cards.
For the
last two months a company called HPMP of Brussels has taken 39.99
euros from
my MBNA account. I have never made any purchases from that company
or had
anything to do with them. When I googled them I cannot find any
contact
details but have found others who have been scammed identically eg
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...html?t=1980881 .

It seems reasonable to me that if I alert the credit card company to
what is
a fraud that they would have a simple mechanism to check my story
(they have
found the Google links and agree it appears to be fraud) refund the
amounts
and stop further debits. But they tell me that this isn't possible.

They tell me that the process is that they will go back to the
fraudsters
credit card company and query it. If no response or proof of
purchase is
provided then they will refund the amounts. But they will do nothing
to
prevent future fraudulent debits. Evidently, even if I were to
cancel the
card they tell me that I will still be responsible for the
fraudulent debits
for as long as the fraudsters choose to process the debits and that
I will
need to call them and invoke the chargeback process for every future
debit.

What concerns me - about from the barmyness of not being able to do
anything
from my side to stop a transaction I have notified as not being
mine - is
that the fraudsters will continue to debit accounts where the debit
has NOT
been noticed and that the credit card companies are complicit with
the
practice by doing nothing to prevent it. With a bank direct debit I
can
cancel it online. Where is the consumer protection and fraud
prevention?

Have I understood this correctly and is there anything I can do to
force a
credit card to take reasonable action to prevent a fraud that they
are
clearly aware of? It seems to me that failing to do so must break
some
banking rule but they tell me that this is not so.

Any pointers appreciated.

The main thing I can think of is keep hassling your credit card
company. If there has been fraud on your account they should issue
you with a new card with a new account number. This should make it
more difficult for the fraud to continue.

I'd also threaten to close your credit card account - this /might/
motivate them to speed things up. However many companies do not
care
about customer churn so will take no action to keep your business.

I don't know whether it is worth calling the Police. They're
supposed
to be interested in stopping crime.

It's pointless reporting it to the police as for a start the OP can't
be sure it *is* fraud (it could simply be a mistake), and secondly if
it is fraud, it's the retailer or the bank that's the victim so it's
up to them to report it.

--
Andy

Andy Pandy wrote:

It's pointless reporting it to the police as for a start the OP can't
be sure it *is* fraud (it could simply be a mistake),

OK, that's possible. But if so, it should be straightforward to sort out.

and secondly if
it is fraud, it's the retailer or the bank that's the victim so it's
up to them to report it.

This is not necessarily true. If the bank are being so obtuse and
unhelpful as to make the OP suggest they are actually "assisting" the
fraudster, then if the cardholder cannot get the charges reversed,
*he* is the victim. Moreover, it's not just the fraudster who
would benefit, but the bank and card company too, from the transaction
fees involved. Thus if there is fraud, and the bank and card company
are facilitating it by being less than enthusiastically helpful to
the cardholder, they would automatically become accomplices.

"Ronald Raygun" wrote in message
om...
Andy Pandy wrote:

It's pointless reporting it to the police as for a start the OP
can't
be sure it *is* fraud (it could simply be a mistake),

OK, that's possible. But if so, it should be straightforward to
sort out.

Not necessarily. Depends on where the mistake was made.

and secondly if
it is fraud, it's the retailer or the bank that's the victim so
it's
up to them to report it.

This is not necessarily true. If the bank are being so obtuse and
unhelpful as to make the OP suggest they are actually "assisting"
the
fraudster, then if the cardholder cannot get the charges reversed,
*he* is the victim.

Yes, but until that happens, ie until the bank says "it was a genuine
transaction, the charge stands", the OP is not a victim of fraud.

Moreover, it's not just the fraudster who
would benefit, but the bank and card company too, from the
transaction
fees involved. Thus if there is fraud, and the bank and card
company
are facilitating it by being less than enthusiastically helpful to
the cardholder, they would automatically become accomplices.

If the bank refuse to refund the charges despite knowing that the
transaction wasn't genuine, then the bank themselves are the
fraudsters!

--
Andy

Andy Pandy wrote:

"Ronald Raygun" wrote in message
om...
Andy Pandy wrote:

It's pointless reporting it to the police as for a start the OP
can't
be sure it *is* fraud (it could simply be a mistake),

OK, that's possible. But if so, it should be straightforward to
sort out.

Not necessarily. Depends on where the mistake was made.

Can you expand on this?

and secondly if
it is fraud, it's the retailer or the bank that's the victim so
it's
up to them to report it.

This is not necessarily true. If the bank are being so obtuse and
unhelpful as to make the OP suggest they are actually "assisting"
the
fraudster, then if the cardholder cannot get the charges reversed,
*he* is the victim.

Yes, but until that happens, ie until the bank says "it was a genuine
transaction, the charge stands", the OP is not a victim of fraud.

Wrong. If there is fraud, then the customer is a victim of it from
the outset. It may be that as a result of taking some action (i.e.
disputing the transaction) perhaps followed by some further action
(resisting attempts to be fobbed off), the customer manages to get
the charges reversed, but that just makes him less of a victim, not
no victim. He's still had the hassle. Some people can get really
stressed by this, so much so that it can harm their health and in
extreme cases trigger a fatal heart attack. He might get the charge
refunded in the end, but it'd be a bit of a pyrrhic victory if it
costs him his life.

Also, the matter of fact (of whether the transaction was genuine) is
not for the bank to judge. It is not impossible to imagine the bank
somehow becoming convinced (by the frauster's smoke and mirror tactics)
to declare the transaction genuine when in fact it wasn't.

Moreover, it's not just the fraudster who
would benefit, but the bank and card company too, from the
transaction
fees involved. Thus if there is fraud, and the bank and card
company
are facilitating it by being less than enthusiastically helpful to
the cardholder, they would automatically become accomplices.

If the bank refuse to refund the charges despite knowing that the
transaction wasn't genuine, then the bank themselves are the
fraudsters!

That's more or less what I said, but I'd put it stronger than you:

There is a big difference between "knowing that it wasn't" and
"not knowing that it was", but nevertheless I suggest the bank, if
they refuse to refund, should be considered complicit not only in the
former case (as you said) but in the latter as well!