Our son is soon to get a mortgage to buy his own flat and also expects to
get married in a year or so. We have seen others having the unfortunate
experience of loosing most of their savings after a divorce. Since the
divorce rate is so high these days, we thought if I or my wife were put down
as 'owners in common' on our son's property deeds, then a future spouse
could 'not' walk off undeservedly with half of our son's property value.
Which would include his life's savings invested in the flat.

I am 65 next year and my wife is now 60, So I hope to make a claim for the
State Pension for both of us quite soon, which will be our sole source of
income.

But if we (my wife and I) are put down as *part owners* of our son's flat on
the title deeds, will that then be considered that we ourselves actually
'own' half the substantial savings our son will invest in the new flat?
Because if this is the case, might it not considerably reduce, or eliminate
any State Pension that might otherwise be due to us?

john d hamilton wrote:
Our son is soon to get a mortgage to buy his own flat and also expects to
get married in a year or so. We have seen others having the unfortunate
experience of loosing most of their savings after a divorce. Since the
divorce rate is so high these days, we thought if I or my wife were put down
as 'owners in common' on our son's property deeds, then a future spouse
could 'not' walk off undeservedly with half of our son's property value.
Which would include his life's savings invested in the flat.

I am 65 next year and my wife is now 60, So I hope to make a claim for the
State Pension for both of us quite soon, which will be our sole source of
income.

But if we (my wife and I) are put down as *part owners* of our son's flat on
the title deeds, will that then be considered that we ourselves actually
'own' half the substantial savings our son will invest in the new flat?
Because if this is the case, might it not considerably reduce, or eliminate
any State Pension that might otherwise be due to us?


SP is not means tested so savings and income are irrelavant, do you mean
Pension Credit?

Mike

"Mike" wrote in message
...
john d hamilton wrote:
Our son is soon to get a mortgage to buy his own flat and also expects to
get married in a year or so. We have seen others having the unfortunate
experience of loosing most of their savings after a divorce. Since the
divorce rate is so high these days, we thought if I or my wife were put
down as 'owners in common' on our son's property deeds, then a future
spouse could 'not' walk off undeservedly with half of our son's property
value. Which would include his life's savings invested in the flat.

I am 65 next year and my wife is now 60, So I hope to make a claim for
the State Pension for both of us quite soon, which will be our sole
source of income.

But if we (my wife and I) are put down as *part owners* of our son's flat
on the title deeds, will that then be considered that we ourselves
actually 'own' half the substantial savings our son will invest in the
new flat? Because if this is the case, might it not considerably reduce,
or eliminate any State Pension that might otherwise be due to us?


SP is not means tested so savings and income are irrelavant, do you mean
Pension Credit?
Mike

Mike thanks for your response. Yes, sorry that should have been Pension
Credit I was talking about. Perhaps I should mention that we do own our own
house and would not be living in our Son's flat.

john d hamilton wrote:
Our son is soon to get a mortgage to buy his own flat and also expects to
get married in a year or so. We have seen others having the unfortunate
experience of loosing most of their savings after a divorce. Since the
divorce rate is so high these days, we thought if I or my wife were put down
as 'owners in common' on our son's property deeds, then a future spouse
could 'not' walk off undeservedly with half of our son's property value.
Which would include his life's savings invested in the flat.

I can see so many complications with this that I would have to say that
you *need* to consult with a qualified lawyer (which I am not). To be
effective, you would need to have beneficial ownership of your part,
which, I suspect, means that, between you and your son, you would be
taxed on the market rent on that part whether or not he actually pays
that rent. I think you would also be liable for capital gains tax (as
an investment property) on sale and for inheritance tax. Having a two
or three way trust, or having a trust of trusts, owning the property can
only cause complications. You should also consider what happens if one
of you becomes mentally incapable; I believe you will need an
independent attorney for each such member of the trust, before you can sell.

If you go into care, the value of the property will, I assume, be used
in the means test to determine whether you can pay your own fees.

Set against this, my understanding that current divorce settlement
policy was that the split should be based on the relevant contributions
and sacrifices (after considering needs of any children). So, with a
late short marriage, the balance should be close to that of the initial
capital input. I also seem to remember hearing that there is a trend to
taking into account pre-nups. For a longer marriage, a low earning wife
may be considered to have sacrificed income to run the home and her
emotional support to have contributed to the husband's earnings. You
should be talking to the lawyer about whether the risks you perceive
really exist.

The other thing to consider is that, if the marriage does last, the wife
will have an increasing moral right (not used in any legal sense) to the
joint wealth, for the reasons given above.

Also, as you are not living the house, I suspect that the part owned by
your son would still be splittable in the divorce settlement. My guess
is that, if you held out, they would give residence to one party and
require them to pay market rent to the other one.

This is definitely not legal advice, but hopefully identifies enough
potential problems that you will seek such advice if you want to proceed
with this idea.

"john d hamilton" wrote in message
...

"Mike" wrote in message
...
john d hamilton wrote:
Our son is soon to get a mortgage to buy his own flat and also expects to
get married in a year or so. We have seen others having the unfortunate
experience of loosing most of their savings after a divorce. Since the
divorce rate is so high these days, we thought if I or my wife were put
down as 'owners in common' on our son's property deeds, then a future
spouse could 'not' walk off undeservedly with half of our son's property
value. Which would include his life's savings invested in the flat.

I am 65 next year and my wife is now 60, So I hope to make a claim for
the State Pension for both of us quite soon, which will be our sole
source of income.

But if we (my wife and I) are put down as *part owners* of our son's flat
on the title deeds, will that then be considered that we ourselves
actually 'own' half the substantial savings our son will invest in the
new flat? Because if this is the case, might it not considerably reduce,
or eliminate any State Pension that might otherwise be due to us?


SP is not means tested so savings and income are irrelavant, do you mean
Pension Credit?
Mike

Mike thanks for your response. Yes, sorry that should have been Pension
Credit I was talking about. Perhaps I should mention that we do own our own
house and would not be living in our Son's flat.


This isn't an advisable thing to do. Ever. As it's based on an intended deception.

When you apply for Pension Credit you will be asked to declare your assets.

Supposing that prior to this your son has already gifted you a half share
in his flat. Regardless of your or his motives for doing so

If when applying for Pension Credit you don't declare your interest in this
flat, then you will be breaking the Law. If the matter ever comes to light
you will be required to pay back any Pension Credit paid, regardless of
the fact that you never actually owned any part of the flat at all.

Neither can you declare it, and claim that you don't actually own it, but that
should your son subsequently divorce you will then "pretend" that you owned
it all along.

Do you see my point ?

A possible intent to decieve cannot ever be used as a justification for
anything - certainly where dealing with Govt Departments is concerned anyway.

Your son will simply have to be more selective in his choice of partner
to share in the raising your grandchildren, I'm afraid.


JS

john d hamilton posted

Our son is soon to get a mortgage to buy his own flat and also expects to
get married in a year or so. We have seen others having the unfortunate
experience of loosing most of their savings after a divorce. Since the
divorce rate is so high these days, we thought if I or my wife were put down
as 'owners in common' on our son's property deeds, then a future spouse
could 'not' walk off undeservedly with half of our son's property value.
Which would include his life's savings invested in the flat.

It's true that she couldn't get your share, but she could get half, or
more likely all, of *his* share.

And also the taxman will regard his occupancy of your share of the house
as a "benefit in kind" for which he should pay you the market rent, and
so they will assess you for the income tax on this imaginary rent. And
then, when you die and he inherits your share, he will pay inheritance
tax on that. Or if you give him your share before you die, you will have
to pay capital gains tax on its increase in value. It's not a good idea.

However, your problem is a common one which I too expect to face soon
enough. I have concluded that in the current legal climate there is only
one bulletproof solution. Your son should *not* marry his girlfriend
unless either (i) she is bringing an equivalent financial contribution
to the marriage; or (ii) he is prepared to wave goodbye to half his
property, and probably much more than that if they have children.

If they (or rather, she) insist on getting married, suggest your son
uses some other method to protect his capital. Pre-nuptial agreements
are these days becoming quite common and the divorce courts do pay some
attention to them (though AIUI they don't regard them as legally
binding).

Or he could put the house in some kind of discretionary trust with you
as trustees.

I do not normally say this on this group, but it is probably worth
taking professional advice on this. But *not* from a high street
solicitor. Find a qualified trust and estate practitioner. (see
www.step.org)

I am 65 next year and my wife is now 60, So I hope to make a claim for the
State Pension for both of us quite soon, which will be our sole source of
income.

But if we (my wife and I) are put down as *part owners* of our son's flat on
the title deeds, will that then be considered that we ourselves actually
'own' half the substantial savings our son will invest in the new flat?

Well, you'll own the fraction of the flat that the agreement says you
own, anyway. Doesn't have to be half. And it'll be net of the mortgage
debt.

Because if this is the case, might it not considerably reduce, or eliminate
any State Pension that might otherwise be due to us?

Pension credit, yes. Also it would compromise your entitlement to local
authority funded long-term care. As well as the disadvantages I listed
above. Don't do it.

--
Les
"God will save her, fear you not, be you the men you've been.
Get you the sons your fathers got and God will save the Queen."

On 22 Aug, 09:41, "John Smith" John wrote:
"john d hamilton" wrote in ...







"Mike" wrote in message
...
john d hamilton wrote:
Our son is soon to get a mortgage to buy his own flat and also expects to
get married in a year or so. We have seen others having the unfortunate
experience of loosing most of their savings after a divorce. *Since the
divorce rate is so high these days, we thought if I or my wife were put
down as 'owners in common' on our son's property deeds, then a future
spouse could 'not' walk off undeservedly with half of our son's property
value. Which would include his life's savings invested in the flat.

I am 65 next year and my wife is now 60, So I hope to make a claim for
the State Pension for both of us quite soon, which will be our sole
source of income.

But if we (my wife and I) are put down as *part owners* of our son's flat
on the title deeds, will that then be considered that we ourselves
actually 'own' half the substantial savings our son will invest in the
new flat? Because if this is the case, might it not considerably reduce,
or eliminate any State Pension that might otherwise be due to us?

SP is not means tested so savings and income are irrelavant, do you mean
Pension Credit?
Mike

Mike thanks for your response. *Yes, sorry that should have been Pension
Credit I was talking about. Perhaps I should mention that we do own our own
house and would not be living in our Son's flat.

This isn't an advisable thing to do. Ever. As it's based on an intended deception.

When you apply for Pension Credit you will be asked to declare your assets.

Supposing that prior to this your son has already gifted you a half share
in his flat. Regardless of your or his motives for doing so

If when applying for Pension Credit you don't declare your interest in this
flat, then you will be breaking the Law. If the matter ever comes to light
you will be required to pay back any Pension Credit paid, regardless of
the fact that you never actually owned any part of the flat at all.

Neither can you declare it, and claim that you don't actually own it, but that
should your son subsequently divorce you will then "pretend" that you owned
it all along.

Do you see my point ?

A possible intent to decieve cannot ever be used as a justification for
anything - certainly where dealing with Govt Departments is concerned anyway.

Your son will simply have to be more selective in his choice of partner
to share in the raising your grandchildren, I'm afraid.

JS



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On a more positive note, the number one cause of divorce is marriage.
Sure, can get a pre-nup agreement. Which some would consider an insult
and others wonder about how long the marriage will last.
And yes, some marriages last a lifetime. Even if they never come back
from the honeymoon. Or reach 75+ years of marriage.

Your son will take a risk. You could always buy a property sharing
with him and later any new wife. I don't recommend it, in laws under
your feet can be quite stressful on a marriage. Yours and his.
Or can simply let him take his own risks. He has more options
available than you do.

Martin

On Aug 21, 6:21*pm, "john d hamilton" wrote:
Our son is soon to get a mortgage to buy his own flat and also expects to
get married in a year or so. We have seen others having the unfortunate
experience of loosing most of their savings after a divorce. *Since the
divorce rate is so high these days, we thought if I or my wife were put down
as 'owners in common' on our son's property deeds, then a future spouse
could 'not' walk off undeservedly with half of our son's property value.
Which would include his life's savings invested in the flat.

I am 65 next year and my wife is now 60, So I hope to make a claim for the
State Pension for both of us quite soon, which will be our sole source of
income.

But if we (my wife and I) are put down as *part owners* of our son's flat on
the title deeds, will that then be considered that we ourselves actually
'own' half the substantial savings our son will invest in the new flat?
Because if this is the case, might it not considerably reduce, or eliminate
any State Pension that might otherwise be due to us?

You mean that your son will be paying the larger part of the cost of
the house? If they are not married, why cannot they own it as
"tenants in common" with the proportion of ownership being in
proportion to what they have both paid? That would seem the natural
thing to do.

Once they get married and the house becomes the matrimonial home, the
court has wide powers to override the ownership proportions if a
divorce takes place.

i don't see that the OP has any business owning part of the house
unless he has contributed financially to its purchase.

Robert

"john d hamilton" wrote in message
...

Our son is soon to get a mortgage to buy his own flat and also expects to
get married in a year or so. We have seen others having the unfortunate
experience of loosing most of their savings after a divorce. Since the
divorce rate is so high these days, we thought if I or my wife were put
down as 'owners in common' on our son's property deeds, then a future
spouse could 'not' walk off undeservedly with half of our son's property
value. Which would include his life's savings invested in the flat.

I am 65 next year and my wife is now 60, So I hope to make a claim for the
State Pension for both of us quite soon, which will be our sole source of
income.

But if we (my wife and I) are put down as *part owners* of our son's flat
on the title deeds, will that then be considered that we ourselves
actually 'own' half the substantial savings our son will invest in the new
flat? Because if this is the case, might it not considerably reduce, or
eliminate any State Pension that might otherwise be due to us?



Won't affect State Retirement Pension.

Might affect minimum income guarantee.

Will have disastrous effects if one of you goes into a home. They won't
charge the deeds of any house the other spouse owns and lives in, but they
will on this one.

"john d hamilton" wrote in message
...

But if we (my wife and I) are put down as *part owners* of our son's flat
on the title deeds, will that then be considered that we ourselves
actually 'own' half the substantial savings our son will invest in the new
flat? Because if this is the case, might it not considerably reduce, or
eliminate any State Pension that might otherwise be due to us?

Depends on whether your son trusts you more than his wife bearing in mind
he's signing over half the flat to you with nil contribution.

A bad idea.